Spare A Thought…

first-off, …new shirts.

whats with the shirt numbers? 43? it’s not bloody yanky doodle dandy football. whats wrong with a good old number 6 or 10.

Poncy Italians :)

For the sake of the dignity of Italian football, AC Milan should play in the Champions League !

well lecce might be found guilty as well; they might have been relegated anyway?

Yipppeeee!!! I still have a team to support in CL this season. Go Milan go

Having just read three long investigative pieces on the Italian scandal in 3 separate magazines, I now have a better grasp of just what this scandal is all about. It’s pretty disgusting. Each article pointed out the many other scandals in certain other European countries (none in France, tho) but all said that no other scandal is like Italy’s. This is a longstanding institutional situation in Italian football, it’s utterly endemic. I also learned that both Buffon and Cannavaro were under suspicion for their betting habits (and consistently lucky betting results). And I learned that players like Ibrahimovic are total stooges of Italian football “lord” Luciano Moggi.

I had thought that maybe with the first decision at least a little justice would really be done but I didn’t understand that the corruption in Italian football runs very very deep and has very powerful connections. The guy who runs most of the country’s football, Moggi, has very powerful friends. I’m afraid this recent prosecution and court decisions comprise just a negligible dent in a much larger, systemic problem. It’s not going away any time soon. I for one have lost all belief in any Italian club.

Hey Wilson which magazines, I would like to read them also.

To the best of my knowledge no players and been indicted at all so I am little cautious about naming people on speculation and rumours.

Juve was at the centre of the match fixing scandal but even though there sentence was reduced I’d hardly call their punishment a slap on the wrist.

Don’t loose faith in the best league in the world….they FIGC seem to me to be cleaning house.

best league in the world!!!!sorry forgot your from canada

apology accepted

kasets, the articles I read are not available online (at least, not that I know of) – they’re from World Soccer magazine, a Brazilian magazine sent to me by a cousin and the other is from Four Four Two. Disturbing stuff. Like the fact that under Moggi Juventus has for years quite literally won matches through outright fraud. An excerpt: “Moggi’s influence appears to have gone far beyond merely meeking ‘favourable’ refereeing for Juventus. He is also accused of having systematically organized the refereeing of Juve’s forthcoming opponents. In other words, he would take a big interest in who was handling a team the week before they faced Juventus. The allegation is that his instructions to the referee were to give a yellow card to any player on that team who already had three bookings. That would mean a suspension for the player, ruling him out the following week. As someone who has done more than 1,600 live Serie A commentaries for state TV network RAI over the past 15 years, I have often noticed how ‘lucky’ Juventus seemed to be when it came to playing against the smaller teams. Not just because the refereeing often seemed favourable to them but also, and arguably more importantly, the other side so often seemed to be without a key player through suspension. Perhaps now we know why.”

There’s a lot more of this stuff. Bear in mind these allegations are all based on tapped phone calls. What started out as an investigation of doping turned into an “explosion of a phone tap scandal which portrayed a deeply cynical, fundamentally corrupt Italian football world, where everything from controversial refereeing decisions to TV pundits analysis is ‘fixed.’”

Referees kidnapped for making wrong decisions, referees threatened and ordered to make favorable decisions, players ordered to start fights with club managers and coaches so they could be transfered to other clubs, suspiciously favorable betting results for key players and coaches, strong personal connections between Moggi and Lippi…and on and on and on. Only a truly naive person refuses to see the reality here.

Having spent 3 years in Italy (one of the greatest experiences in my life, I want to go back), I already knew of some of this corruption in Italian football, I just didn’t know many details. A few prosecutions and reduced sentences won’t cut it. I fully admire and respect the guys on the prosecution side, they’re led by people who really want to clean up Italian football, but they’re fighting against a deeply institutional and far more powerful system. They are earnest individuals fighting against a system with deep connections to Italy’s most powerful institutions. “Fundamentally corrupt” is the accurate term here. And this is a LONGSTANDING situation – the same exact situation of a corruption scandal plaguing Italian football existed during the 1982 world cup when Italy won. A few noises were made, some prosecutions went thru, but especially after the world cup win, all went quietly back as before. If genuine reform is to take place, it will take literally YEARS of education and purging because the culture of corruption (much like in Brazil) is *endemic* – it’s not something that can just go away within a few months or a couple of years. Fundamental change takes a very very long time.

This isn’t a case of a “few bad apples” – this is the argument used by people who are entirely ignorant of the reality of italian football, have absolutely no knowledge of it, and are just patriotic fans who prefer to sweep stuff like this under the rug. We’ve had a lot of this lately – Zidane fans (of which I am one) have done the exact same thing recently. No one likes to face reality when it comes to their pet idols. We prefer to overlook flaws and make excuses for them, and yet we all just love to attack and judge teams and players who we have no emotional investment in. It’s called moral hypocrisy.

By the way, I was wrong about there being no scandal in France — the Marseilles club recently also had a match-fixing scandal. As I said in my first message, lots of European countries have had plenty of scandals but all professional sports reporters and other observers agree that the italian one is more serious and more endemic than most. That’s not just my judgment.

Sorry, kasets, but I don’t think you’re capable of objectivity on this issue.

Wilson,

Thanks for the post and your perspective on the issue.

I been following the scadal by reading my local papers, internet sites as well as gazzetta della sport (Italian Sports Paper).

I don’t know what else is expected from FIGC. Most people are aware of the relegations of teams ect….but also but many people have been kicked out of soccer altogether

The following punishments were given to individuals.[9]

Fabrizio Babini: 1 year ban from football.
Franco Carraro: 4½ year ban from football.
Massimo De Santis: 4½ year ban from football.
Paolo Dondarini: 3½ year ban from football.
Adriano Galliani: 1 year ban from football.
Antonio Giraudo: €20,000 fine and 5 year ban from football, with a further recommendation to the FIGC president that he be banned for life from membership of the FIGC at any level.
Pietro Ingargiola: Given a warning.
Tullio Lanese: 2½ year ban from football.
Claudio Lotito: €10,000 fine and 3½ year ban from football.
Gennaro Mazzei: 1 year ban from football.
Innocenzo Mazzini: 5 year ban from football.
Leonardo Meani: 3½ year ban from football.
Luciano Moggi: €50,000 fine and 5 year ban from football, with a further recommendation to the FIGC president that he be banned for life from membership of the FIGC at any level.
Pierluigi Pairetto: 2½ year ban from football.
Gianluca Paparesta: 3 month ban from football.
Claudio Puglisi: 1 year ban from football.
Andrea Della Valle: €20,000 fine and 3½ year ban from football.
Diego Della Valle: €30,000 fine and 4 year ban from football.

As well a new GM of the FIGC Virginia Fillipi has been hired.

Thankfully unlike 1982 things are’nt beieng quietly swept under the rug. Real action is taking place.

You seem very knowledgable on the subject what else do you believe needs to be done?

Regards

kasets,
I think that what is essential is this: in order for an endemic culture of corruption (anywhere, not just Italy – I’d say the same thing about the legalized bribery that exists in the US Congress), people need to know that there is genuine *accountability* and real punishment, real consequences to certain actions, and that connections with powerful names will mean nothing. That means a fully independent legal system not amenable to pressure or sentiment. I think the system of monitoring, statutes and laws, punishments needs to be consistent, stronger, more coherent, more tightly organized and accountable. I speak of a more structural reform – and that takes a lot of time and a lot dedication.

I appreciate the fact that you’ve listed a number of punishments to a number of individuals. Frankly, I think some of them are much too lenient but I know others think otherwise. Some of these people shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near football ever again, period. Once you’ve broken trust like this, I don’t think you should be allowed anywhere near the very thing that you violated — or at least not for a very very very long time. In other words, I think that a much more comprehensive, structual plan of combatting this culture should be devised so that conditions no longer exist in which a guy like Moggio can even begin to think he can get away with the slightest violation. And that takes time (sorry, I’m repeating myself). I genuinely hope that this is the start of a much deeper internal systemic reform, I really do. I just have strong doubts, given the track record. But I’ll be pulling for the good guys who pushed this prosecution through, and their vision of a cleaner, better Italian football world.

Italy is a great footballing country and (unlike, say, France) its popularity cuts across class lines. Its popularity is intense, widespread and passionate, much like Brazil’s. It’s a very important part of Italian society and I think Italy just deserves better than this.

I really want to learn more about this scandal and Wilson and kastets, you both seem to have logical and supported opinions which is good to see and also rare to see. (because quite often we get people like Darren who… well lets just say are NOT as educated…)

I’m a big fan of the Italian national team and I’m just tired of those who suggest that this scandal can somehow be connected to their world cup win cuz that’s just jealous nonsense that needs to stop.

Good luck to those involved for justice to be brought, whatever that justice is.

Wilson, very good posts.
Just one thing I don’t agree on. You seem to think the penalties were reduced in appeal due to club’s connections with powerful names. Which would mean corruption extended to the judging court.
I believe the pressure of fans were the factor. You relegate a club and you are relegating thousands of people, as you said “Its popularity is intense, widespread and passionate”.
And there’s not the smoking gun, attempt of corruption, that’s what is proven. We all know that corruption was endemic but that’s common sense, the law needs facts to be proven.
PS: I would have really appreciated all clubs relegated, Juve in serie C.

“Just one thing I don’t agree on. You seem to think the penalties were reduced in appeal due to club’s connections with powerful names. Which would mean corruption extended to the judging court”

I agree with kasets that some of the punishments (ex: Moggi) were way too lenient. Also, the very fact that Lazio and Fiorentina, were reinstated back to Serie A after a very quick appeal by each team, shows that this scandal is very deep-rooted, definitely extending to the judging court. Those verdicts should have stood as they were, what kind of an example does this again show the rest of the footballing world?